I see no necessity of replying, at present, to any part of my friend's last address, save so much as relates to the communication which appeared in the London Times newspaper. In regard to that letter, I have only to say, it is my letter; I wrote it, and sent it to the press. When that letter was written, it did not, nor does it now, appear to me, that I stand pledged to prove the fallacy of the Christian religion, separated from all other religions. To me, they all appear one and the same in principle and in general practice, except the difference in the rites and ceremonies, which I deem mere forms. I believe that my words are that all religions of the world are founded in error--the Christian religion is embraced in the word all. Mr. Campbell should not presume that I have already stated all that may be brought forward, if more shall be required. I think Mr. Campbell will be satisfied, after a little while, that I have adhered closely to the spirit of the engagement. When I shall have presented the whole of my views, Mr. Campbell will have an opportunity of discovering the connection of [31] each part with the whole, and of making a reply accordingly. I have no wish that anything abstract or metaphysical should make its way into this discussion, to render it too complex for plain men to understand. Let us have nothing to distract our attention from plain, simple truth, and, if possible, from facts, and just reasoning from them. In the course of this discussion, I can assure Mr. Campbell that I have not the least desire to avail myself of any advantage which might possibly accrue to me by reason of our having different vocabularies, or of our discordant acceptation of terms; but I shall pursue a straightforward path to endeavor to elicit truth, and shall explain, where necessary, the meaning which I annex to my letters. As it would be, however, unfair to expect Mr. Campbell, or any other person, to reply offhand to the mass of matter that will be presented, I wish him to take home my manuscript, and to have time allowed him to consider them at his leisure. I do not desire to take advantage in the present discussion; my sole object is, if possible, to discover truth for the benefit of all.

      Here Mr. Owen read the letter to the editor of the London Times, or a part of it.

      Now, said Mr. Owen, I believe I have to show that not only the Christian religion, but also, all other religions are founded in ignorance, etc. If such be the case, I hope to make the truth so plain that all may understand it, and derive the practical benefit from it which it is my sole object to produce.

      Mr. Campbell rose and said--that the object stated in that letter was to elicit all that is valuable in each religion, and to reject all that is false. Now, if it be Mr. Owen's object, by this meeting, to form a new religion, extracted from all religions, and partaking of the excellencies of each, and rejecting all that is erroneous in each of them, I can only say that this is a very different meeting from any that I have ever contemplated. But I ask Mr. Owen, continued he, did I agree to such an undertaking?

      Mr. Owen said--Mr. Campbell agreed to this meeting in the exact terms of my challenge to the clergy in New Orleans, and to no other. But this must elicit all that is true in the principles of all religions, and thus bring out all that is perfect in each.

      Mr. Campbell adds--I only wish to be distinctly understood, that I have never even connived at a convention having such an object in view as stated in the London Times.

      Here the Hon. Chairman rose and stated--That it was the unanimous opinion of the Board that the disputant holding the affirmative of any proposition should distinctively state that proposition; and [32] when stated, that then it should be discussed distinctively, and that all the arguments or demonstrations adduced should be connected with that single proposition, until nothing new could be offered--and when one of the propositions was thus discussed, the second should be treated in the same manner, and in the order stated. In the discussion of the great proposition, whether all religions are not founded in error, the Board would suggest that the discussion might be shortened by narrowing down the proposition, which could be done by substituting the word Christian and Jewish religions in the world. In this way, the party holding the negative, might bring all his arguments to bear upon that particular religion, which he wished to advocate. The Board have no idea of dictating in this matter, but they merely wish to suggest that the discussion might be shortened by narrowing the proposition as proposed.

      To this suggestion of the Board, Mr. Owen replied--That to alter the nature of the discussion would be rather to increase the length of it. If, said he, I prove all religions to be erroneous, I prove the Christian religion to be founded in error.

      Here Mr. Owen commenced reading his address.

      You are not, however, to be blamed on this account, any more than the cannibals, Gentoos or Pagans. You and they have been placed, from infancy, without your knowledge, will, or consent, within circumstances, not of your formation, which have made each what they are, and all are alike objects of deep commiseration to those who have been permitted to discover the thick darkness of error, which, at this day, veils the most valuable knowledge from men, and through ignorance thereof keeps them in sin and misery. And it is the universal belief, in these fables and doctrines, thus forced into the infant mind, that is now the only real obstacle to the formation of a society, over the earth, of intelligence, of charity in its most extended sense, of unlimited sincerity, and of pure affection.

      Hitherto, however, all governments, from the circumstances in which they have existed, have had but two primary objects to attain and secure. The first to keep the governed, or the great mass of the people, in the greatest possible ignorance of human nature, and the second to devise safe means by which the largest amount of their labor could be obtained from them for the use of the governing party. The first object has been always attained by the air of the priesthood, who have been appointed to instruct the people in some of these fables and doctrines, which, however they may differ from or be opposed to, those taught in other countries, all governments agree to [33] call the religion, derived immediately by some revelation or other from their chief divinity or divinities.

      By these means the faculties of memory and imagination have been highly cultivated in those countries, which are deemed the most civilized, while the superior intellectual faculties, when applied to acquire a correct knowledge of human nature, have been held in no estimation; but, on the contrary, their cultivation for this purpose has been discouraged by every unfair means that cunning could invent and power apply.

      And the success of these measures has been so complete, that in all countries, at this day, man is more ignorant of himself than of almost anything else by which he is surrounded.

      Up to this period, however, no government could pursue any other course with safety or with the least prospect of being permanent. The circumstances did not exist to permit them to do it. For the population of the world must be governed by force, through their ignorance, or by great justice, intelligence, and good feelings.

      There is no permanent stopping-place between these two extremes, and the best disposed governments have often felt this truth. Until now the knowledge and the means to govern a numerous population through intelligence and affection did not exist.

      Previous to any successful attempt, it was necessary that experience should develop two sciences; first, the science of the influence of circumstances over human nature; the second, the science of the means of creating unlimited wealth, and of its equal distribution.

      By the knowledge of these two sciences, properly applied to practice, all men may be easily taught and trained from infancy to become intelligent, independent, and happy, and to be governed without any difficulty, through their affections.

      These two sciences are now known, sufficiently, to be applied, with success, to the population of all countries; and upon investigation, it will be found to be the interest of all governments to prepare the means, without delay, by which the people in their respective countries, may be taught this knowledge, in such a manner that all shall be benefited and none shall be injured.

      By these measures being adopted, and openly and honestly made known to the public, all collision between the governments and people will be avoided; all attempts at future revolutions will cease; the governors and governed will be actively engaged in this good and great work; mutual confidences will be acquired, and peace and good-will, will everywhere prevail.

      Were any parties so ignorant of their own interest or happiness, as [34] to desire to withhold this happy change from their fellow-beings, they could not now effect it except by an increase of the tyranny of the few over the many.

      For the knowledge of these sciences has gone forth, never again to be recalled, or to become unknown, by any efforts man can make. It is now actively passing from mind to mind, and from country to country; and no human power can stay its course, until it shall pervade all countries and every mind.

      Thus, as it appears to me, have I proved that all the religions of the world have originated in error; that they are directly opposed to the divine, unchanging laws of human nature; that they are necessarily the source of vice, disunion, and misery; that they are now the only obstacle to the formation of a society, over the earth, of intelligence, of charity in its most extended sense, and of sincerity and kindness among the whole human race. And, also, that these district religions can be no longer maintained in any part of the world, except by the perpetuation of the ignorance of the mass of the people, and of the continued tyranny of the few over the many.

      Mr. Owen having finished reading, he remarked that--

      In consequence of the remarks which had fallen from Mr. Campbell, it becomes necessary to state, generally, that in my opinion, it is perfectly useless to go into the examination of the verity of any or all the religions against which I am contending; for if I can show that man is a being entirely different from what all those religions assume him to be, I apprehend that I shall thereby prove all that is incumbent on me to establish. And I trust that I shall be able to show to this assembly, that man is a being to whom no religion, ever yet invented, can apply.

      Mr. Campbell rose and said--

      Before the discussion intermits, I should like to make a few remarks. I feel much interested in having this discussion brought to a satisfactory issue. Mr. Owen and myself have given birth to large and liberal expectations from this discussion. There are a great many persons who honestly doubt the truths of religion--and these honest skeptics, who are without sufficient evidence to determine their minds, have come hither with a view to be edified by the discussion. Surely then we have an object of great importance before us. What now is our progress toward this great object? Mr. Owen read us an essay upon what he calls twelve matters of fact of divine laws of human nature. Suppose now we were to admit all these twelve facts, does this admission oblige us to accede to all the laws and deductions he may superinduce on these facts? By no means. Is [35] Mr. Owen's loose declamation to settle or unsettle the faith of any one? Has he introduced either argument or proof? Who can say that he has? Nevertheless, it appears to me, that Mr. Owen really thinks he has established, in evidence, everything which he has undertaken to prove. I have a strong misgiving that Mr. Owen is about to give us a view or theory of the world, as foreign to the appropriate subject now before this meeting, as would be the history of a tour up the Ganges. I repeat, that there are in this assembly some doubting Christians, that require to be confirmed, and some skeptics to be corrected. To the confirmation and conviction of such auditors, all our reasonings should tend. All this time I should have been proving or disproving some position bearing upon the great question at issue. Instead of this I must hear Mr. Owen reading upon a variety of topics having no legitimate bearing upon the subject matter before us.

      During the recess before us, I could wish that the gentlemen moderators would agree upon some course, and compel us to pursue it. Shall I be permitted to speculate abstractly upon the possibility or impossibility of any human being in any age, having the power to invent any religion? Will it be in order, for me to introduce some affirmative propositions in case Mr. Owen proceeds to read, as he has done, essays upon human nature, civil government, or a new order of political society? I think I am able to prove that man cannot invent any, even the most extravagant, religion in the world. In all religions I conceive that there are certain ideas, for the invention of which, man viewed philosophically, cannot be supposed to possess any powers. Shall I be at liberty to prove this by facts equal in strength, to say the least of them, to any one of those on which Mr. Owen would found his theory of human nature? I merely ask for permission to take this course on condition that Mr. Owen refuses to be confined to the discussion of his own propositions. If I am permitted to take this course, I will attempt to demonstrate that man is in possession of powers never developed--never even glanced at, in any one of Mr. Owen's twelve divine laws. I will endeavor to show that in all religions there are ideas, terms and phrases so supernatural that no human mind could originate them, according to any system of philosophy taught in the world. If this permission cannot logically be granted, according to the stipulated rules of the discussion, I ask to what part Mr. Owen's address am I to reply? For I do confess that Mr. Owen has not presented to my mind anything for it to take hold of, having any argumentative bearing upon any one of his five positions. I confess myself too obtuse to discover the logical bearing of what he has read. I hope upon his first position we shall be able in the afternoon to take up the [36] subject in a more logical form. For I am now determined to present, with your permission, to this audience such a body of evidence as shall put it out of the power of any honest inquirer to doubt the truth and divine origin of Christianity.

      Here Mr. Campbell stated that the time had expired, and moved an adjournment, which was carried.

      Afternoon.--The Hon. Chairman rose and stated that the Moderators had felt it their duty to re-examine the challenge given, and the acceptance. We find, said he, that the challenge contains five distinct propositions, separately stated. The first is, that all religions had been founded in ignorance. It is the opinion of the Moderators that the discussion this afternoon, ought to be confined to that proposition, until the subject is exhausted. Then the second proposition should be taken up. It is therefore expected that the discussion, this afternoon, will be founded on, and confined to, this first proposition, viz.: "that all religions are founded in ignorance."

      Mr. Campbell stated to the Chairman that Mr. Owen wished to be informed when his half hour expired.

      Mr. Owen rose with the Christian Baptist in his hand containing the particulars of the challenge and acceptance, and continued his address.

      My friends, I am now here to prove that all religions ever known from the beginning of time till the present hour, have originated in the general and universal ignorance of mankind. I conclude that, to do this at this period would be unnecessary, if men had been taught to know what manner of beings they were, how they were formed at birth, and how their characters were afterward produced for them. Had this knowledge been born with man, it would have been impossible that any one of these religions could have existed for one hour. I shall endeavor to show that man is a thing entirely different from what he has been supposed to be by any religion ever invented and that none of these religions apply in any degree to a being formed as man is. And to prove this we require the aid of no authority derived from testimony from the darkest ages of ignorance, from a period of the world when no reliance can be placed upon any doubtful testimony. We have, on the contrary, only to appeal to ourselves and the facts which exist here at this moment, which exist wherever human beings can be found. I have stated as a fundamental law of human nature that man, at birth, is ignorant of everything relative to his own organization--that he has not been permitted to create any part of his faculties, qualities or powers, physical or mental. Now if we are so formed that we have not any kind of will or control in the formation of ourselves; of our physical propensities; of our [37] intellectual and physical qualities; surely we cannot be held responsible for what they have been made for us. How can an infant be made responsible for that of which it was entirely ignorant? Any religion, therefore, which pre-supposes man bad by nature, must surely be founded in utter ignorance of human nature. I do not imagine it to be necessary to take up much of your time in proving that an infant at birth is quite incapable of knowing anything about his organization or natural capabilities. And yet his character and conduct proceed essentially from them; they are the only foundation of his virtues and vices. Over the formation of these, however, he has had no control, nor in the forming of anything that belongs to himself. No being, therefore, so created can ever be made to become responsible for his nature. It is said there is a difference between men--and this is true; for some are evidently created superior and some inferior in certain natural qualities; but whether inferior or superior, they were not designed or executed by the individuals possessing them, and they cannot therefore, deserve merit or demerit for having them, or be made, without great injustice, responsible for them. Every parent, and every individual who has the power of observation, know that there are no two persons born precisely alike; that there is almost every kind of variety in the formation of the human being at birth. They know also that the individuals themselves could not make the smallest part of this difference, that the children have no influence whatever in giving to themselves what are called good or bad, superior or inferior qualities. Let us suppose two infants, one the best, and one the worst, in nature. As neither could make himself, what are we to say respecting each? Shall we praise the one and blame the other? Shall we make each responsible for the conduct that must flow from these two different organizations, if left to themselves without culture? I repeat, did either infant make his propensities weak or strong, superior or inferior? If not, if there ought to be any difference in our conduct toward these infants as they grow to maturity, it ought to be shown in our greater commiseration for the inferior; this ought to be the feeling which all should possess, and which all will possess when they shall understand what manner of being they are. If one of our species be made inferior to the other, it is our duty and our interest not only to commiserate him, but to endeavor to remedy the defect of his nature; and when we shall know ourselves we shall so act, because no other conduct will appear to us to be rational. Well, then, if the infant at birth did not make himself, and if the difference discoverable between infants was not made by themselves, surely we cannot say that the infant is responsible either for the one or the other. I feel it unnecessary to take more time to [38] prove the truth of these two laws or the obvious deductions which every one who reflects must draw from them. And if these things be as I have stated, all religions are founded in error, for their dogmas are in direct opposition to these self-evident truths and the deductions made from them. These laws of our nature, then, must be erroneous or all religions are untrue and founded in ignorance. The third divine law of our nature is, that each individual is placed at birth, without his knowledge or consent, within the influence of circumstances which operate irresistibly upon his peculiar organization; and these circumstances thus stamp their own general character upon the infant and the man; yet the influence of these circumstances is modified by the peculiar organization of the individual subjected to them. Now I do not suppose that it will be necessary to enter into any very elaborate argument to prove this law.

      Is there, I ask, in this varied assembly, composed of individuals born in so many different and distant countries, one individual who can say that he determined the period when he should be born, of whom, in what country, and who should be his instructor? Did any of you determine which of all the religions of the world you should be taught to believe, or whether you should be born a prince or a peasant? Whether you should be well or ill educated, according to our ideas of education? Or is there any one here who can suppose it possible that he has ever had the slightest control over any one of these circumstances? Many individuals of this audience have been born in very different parts of Europe and America, and have unavoidably received their local impressions accordingly. But suppose we had all been born among a tribe of thorough-going cannibals, would we not, in that case, have been sure to have experienced great delight in killing and eating our enemies? But if we had been taken soon after our birth to India, and taught to become Gentoos, how many of us could have resisted acquiring a character that would have compelled us to shudder with horror even at the idea of injuring a fly? Probably not one in this assembly--I imagine no one will doubt it; and if true, does it not prove beyond all doubt that we are not the formers of our own character; that we are beings irresponsible for what we are--irresponsible for our feelings, opinions, and conduct? Does it not prove that we are the effects of causes irresistible in their influence? Who among us decided that he should be taught to speak English, be instructed in the Christian religion and belong to his particular sect? If we had happened to have been born in the great circle of Mohammedanism, what would have been our character compared with what it now is? And it is not our fault or our merit that this was not our lot in life. No, my friends, [39] we are to all intents the effects of causes to us irresistible; and when we shall be taught to know what manner of beings we are, this will be to us the most inestimable of all knowledge, it will enable us to open a road for the removal of all the poverty, ignorance, disunion, vice, and crime which everywhere abound; it will moreover open a direct road to enable us to act upon the rising generation in such a manner that there shall not be one individual trained to remain inferior in society. We shall discover a mathematical mode of training the rising generation, by which they shall be prevented from receiving one error, one bad habit, or acquiring one injurious passion. Yes, this knowledge of ourselves will lead us to know precisely how all this is to be accomplished, and speedily too. But it will effect yet more; it will render it utterly impossible for one human being to become angry with another, or to feel any irritation or displeasure toward any one. All our irritation against our fellow-men arises from our entire ignorance of what manner of beings we all are. Where is there any just cause for anger among men? Does my brother differ from me in language, color, religion, or manners? Did he decide upon the formation of any one of these? Does he, in consequence, differ from me in habits, feelings, conduct? Was he the framer or is he the controller of these feelings, habits, and conduct? No, these have all been forced upon him in like manner as mine have upon me. And whenever we shall become only slightly rational, there will be no longer either anger, or irritation, or opposition, or disunion, among the human family. Are not the principles which can produce these results deserving our most serious investigation? When they shall be fully developed and well understood, there will be no longer any doubt or uncertainty as to the proper conduct to pursue in all the affairs of life. No fanciful notions under the name of any religion will be permitted to divide man from man and render the whole race irrational and miserable. In your commercial proceedings an entire change will take place. A knowledge of the best interests of society will introduce a new practice and supersede all attempts to buy cheap and sell dear. There will be no more covert enmity among those who are now by their training and education endeavoring to grasp at, and monopolize all benefits to themselves. Then the heart and the hand will be always open; then there will be no necessity for any one to spend all his time and exert all his faculties to provide the means of existence for himself and family, while those who do nothing, or worse than nothing, live upon his labor. This grievous evil will altogether cease. The fundamental principle of human nature stated this forenoon was, "that each individual at birth is so organized that in infancy he is liable to imbibe false and injurious notions, etc., [40] or their opposites, and to retain them with great tenacity." In proof of this we have only to notice the details of the measures by which sects and parties and conditions of mankind are formed and produced. They are compelled to receive the impressions from the persons and circumstances around them; and after the mental and physical habits have been some time formed, they then often cannot part with them again, except by much labor and suffering. Man has heretofore been a mere passive subject, obliged to receive any impressions which have been made upon his senses; and whatever they may be, whether good or bad, true or false, they are not the impressions, correctly speaking, of the individual, but solely the influence of external circumstances acting upon an organization, which had no hand in framing and which he does not understand, and for which, therefore, it would be an act of the greatest injustice to reward or punish.

      We have been taught so much error, and have gone, in consequence, so far astray, that it will be a considerable time before our ideas can be made consistent and rational; but when this shall be done it will be discovered that there exists no cause in nature why any human being should suppress the expression of sensations which he has been compelled to receive. When we shall know ourselves truth only will be the language of mankind. Neither young nor old, male nor female, will then discover any reason why they should not speak their thoughts and feelings as their nature compels them to receive them.

      It is man's ignorance of his nature that has alone produced falsehood; all the falsehood that has ever existed in the world emanates directly and alone from this source. The religions of the world prevent men from investigating the laws of nature; they give quite a different direction to men's thoughts, and render them unfit to commence a calm and unprejudiced investigation of themselves. "Know thyself," was the most valuable precept that ever ancient or modern oracle has delivered. And when we shall all be taught to know ourselves, then, and then only, can the world become intelligent, virtuous and happy. There is nothing to prevent the immediate commencement of a very superior and happy state of society but the present universal ignorance of mankind of themselves. When you retire from this meeting, you may be assured, there is no subject which can occupy your thoughts at all comparable in importance to the serious investigation of what you yourselves are. This is a subject that would be fairly open to every one except for the early prepossessions which have been imbibed. When you shall be released from the errors upon this subject that all religions have been forced into the human mind you will be relieved from a state of darkness of which now you have not [41] the means of forming any adequate conception. Now, indeed, you see nothing as it is; you see only as through a glass darkly, and a glass so dark that no rays of pure light can pass through it.

[COD 31-42]